Invasion Day 520 – Summary
The summary of the situation of Russian re-invasion to Ukraine covering the last 48 hours, as of 28th July 2023 – 22:00 (Kyiv time).
Sloboda Front
includes the area of between Oskil and Aydar river
Ukrainian General Staff reports repelled attacks in the vicinity of:
- Nadiya
Siverskyi Donets
overview map of Slovyansk, Kramatorsk, Bakhmut and Lysychansk vicinity
Ukrainian General Staff reports repelled attacks in the vicinity of:
- No activity reported.
Bakhmut Front
includes the vicinity of Bakhmut
- Ukrainian forces advanced near Klishchiivka and pushed Russians out of a forest area there. (source)
Ukrainian General Staff reports repelled attacks in the vicinity of:
- Khromove, Klishchiivka
Avdiivka Front
includes the vicinity of Avdiivka
Ukrainian General Staff reports repelled attacks in the vicinity of:
- Avdiivka
Donetsk Front
includes the center and southern part of Donetsk Oblast
- Ukrainian 35th Marine Brigade, with the support of other units, liberated Staromayorskoye settlement. (source)
Ukrainian General Staff reports repelled attacks in the vicinity of:
- Marinka, Makariivka, Rivnopil
Zaporizhzhia Front
includes the Zaporizhzhia Oblast
- Ukrainian forces advanced towards Verbove and reached the first line of the Russian main defense line north-west of the settlement. (source)
- Ukrainian attack group assaulted Russian positions east of Robotyne. The area is now likely a grey zone, as there is no verification if Ukrainian attack was successful or not at this moment. (source)
Ukrainian General Staff reports repelled attacks in the vicinity of:
- No activity reported.
Kherson Front
includes the left bank of Dnipro river south of Kherson and Kakhovka
- Ukrainian reconnaissance group landed on the left bank of Konka river. (source)
Ukrainian General Staff reports repelled attacks in the vicinity of:
- No activity reported.
Full map of Ukraine
overview map of current situation in Ukraine
This summary and detailed maps are based on the following sources:
General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, official media channels of Ukrainian regional administrations, Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs, Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) and geolocated footage.
We also thank the following Twitter users for their geolocations and amazing work: @neonhandrail, @auditor_ya and the team at @geoconfirmed.
Our community |
Mentioned Units |
No unit mentioned.
Monthly losses of Russia and below Ukraine reported by Oryx (open source, visually confirmed), July update.
I messed up the link:
https://militaryland.net/forum/russian-invasion-2022/losses-as-reported-by-oryx/#post-478
Monthly Russian losses as reported by Ukraine in 2023, July update.
Keep it up, Ukraine.
Nice, the data seems to coallign with ISW’s reporting of fatigue on the Russian side in Zaporizhzhia. All Ukraine needs now to speed up things are F-16s
Three ships passed blockade already guarded by american drones. Since links are awaiting approval, google search – jeruzalem post or forbes or…
Under Turkish protection… Israelien and Greek ships…even if one of them will be threatened or hit by naval artillery it will be a war declaration and Israel will react
dont tell me 🙂 tell Russia to react in accordance to threats they made
https://blog.parabellumhistory.net/2023/07/30/aggiornamento-guerra-russo-ucraina-dal-25-al-29-luglio-2023/
What’s going on in Olshki?
Already a few weeks ago it was reported that special forces of Ukraine captured the bridgehead, what is progressing there? Were they repelled?
the bridgehead hold. they are not progressing and they doesnt try to progress. it seem russian stop to try to repulse them.
But they slowly take control of different islands.
Rybar talk to a difficult situation. so probably, ukrain take new unrevealed positions.
The Russians claim to have recaptured Staromajorske
They always make this kind of claims after the liberation of one settlement. its for make the bad news sweet.
sometimes, they really counterattacks, take the settlement and be repulse again because who hold the high hold the low.
here, it seem to be no counterattack.
And they claimed Novoselivke on 24th, so what? They tell a lot of stories that cannot be corroborated. Like withdrawal of good will from Kyiv or Snake Island. Once geo is confirmed, we will know, like in Bakhmut. So far, they can claim whatever they want.
It is only claims and marketing, shouting in every media lies to cover their defeats … They only want big posivite titles because lot of people with believe it and be ensured that russian is winning the war… Same for bombing civil structures and say that it was high strategical OTAN HQ …people will trust this announces even if it’s complete lies they don’t care
Yeah I found it strange they didn’t boast about recapturing it on RT or TASS
The Ukrainians hold the northern half, the southern one is in a grey area (none of the sides hold it). the Russians are positioned south and west of the settlement.
And here’s an article on how the Ukrainians captured Staromaiorske:
https://www.voanews.com/a/russians-were-waiting-for-us-ukraine-troops-explain-counteroffensive-fight-/7205661.html
Apologies, no summary tonight. I had to take care about of something, and I don’t want to publish a rushed, unfinished summary with possible mistakes.
no worries, nothing really worth mentioning over past days.
Hello!
As I‘m interested in the event, without having much experience, could you tell me why the ukraine army makes the offensives in the Bachmut region?
Of course it is necessary that the RUS will be attacked on all fronts, but Donezk (with the parts which are occupied since 2014) seems for me the most „protected“ one and the easiest region to reach by russian logistics.
Like: Having a more defensive-offensive approach there and using more of the offensive forces for the south fight?
And one second question:
Is there any statistics or former experiences how much of the persons of an army, are able (or willing) to fight in such offensive actions?
As defending seems easier, could there be a point that nobody want to active engage because of fear?
Retaking Bakhmut would be a moral blow to Russia since it took a long time to capture. Having more attack vectors than the main one also serves the purpose of probing the defensive lines as well as pinning soldiers in other places, which both facilitate the attack.
You are probably right concerning logistics, but there are a couple of points that make bakhmut an easier target. 1) Uraine has the highground and attacks down hill 2) Wagner is gone here and was the leading force for ever, the replacements don’t know the area as well and have probably less combat power 3) Russia was in the offensive here for ever and there was some movement usually, so no line
Thanks for your answer!
To the 1) How will it be handled when UKR moves forward from their highgrounds and liberate the down hill ground again?
If I remember it right (as example) they left Siewerodonezk and Lysychansk last year because the cites were set on a down hill ground.
So would then Russians from their eastern highgroundattack the down hill again? Would it a cat and mouse game?
They will probably not try to cross main donbass frontline this year. only if russian collapse, but its not what we see .
For Siewerodonezk, they will probably liberate the city via Svatove front, not via frontal siege in unfavorable field.
The main difference is artillery. Russian artillery decrease in quantity and quality (used canon lose precision and shoot shorter).
Ukrain artillery increase in quantity and quality.
And russia cant do anything to change this evolution.
Thank you for your insights!
Thank you!
How much value has morality in such a case?
Like when UKR liberated northern Cherson/Charkiv region, they said that RUS were feared down.
Same when RUS conquered Bakhmut they said it was a big blow for UKR.
Still both a fighting, of course that there are the internal issues in Russia, but like: Has morality such a high impact?
How many soldiers take part in individual offensive operations depends on the country.RUS relies on human waves for attacks in the war,which consumes a lot of flesh.While the UKR are more tactical in their attacks and tend to attack in small groups. They also use their weapons and vehicles more skillfully.RUS doesn’t care how many of their own soldiers die as long as they can always be replenished
Soldier morale is one of the most important points to watch. Morale is not only related to how motivated the soldiers are. But also in terms of their food. A soldier can go into battle highly motivated. But if he hasn’t had enough food and water for months and hasn’t had much sleep, morale will also drop. It is not only the will that influences this, but the physical condition.
Thanks Kay!
1 ) To fix russian troops.
2) To liberate their country.
3) To regain good defensiv position
4) To prepare a future offensive in this direction next year.
5) To put strategic logistic lign closer to himars.
The question is more: Why not make offensives in Bakmut region .
Thanks dolgan! A bit like the same question to Max, when they move forward again and liberate the down hills back, how could it be prevent that RUS don‘t get them back, and at the end both sitting on their high grounds, having an „open“ mid between them? Or if I look to your point 3,4 where would be this point, like how many kilometers they need to go east for good point for the… Read more »
Other than the strategical value of Bakhmut as a major road intersection you will find nothing but scorched earth east of it till the old line of contact. Any liberated town obviously has a political value in itself, but the south is for many reasons a lot more important.
Anyways, to retake all that was lost, bakhmut has to be taken…
The high ground is just one factor of many.
Wildly speculating, you have railroad junction in Debaltseve, another one in Popasna or they could open another direction to Sieverodonetsk/Lysychansk. But its somewhat open land and scorched from last year, when Russians were advancing closer to Bakhmut. For UAF could be narrowing Bakhmut salient, defensively in heights and blow to Russian propaganda as suitable outcome. Summer is ending.
3) they just need to repulse russian to the otherside of the river. no need to enter in bakmut. may be take yakolivka. its close to be done.
4) minimum: Repulse russian 15 km from bakmut to can use it like a logistic hub. retake full secure control of T1302 road.
Nice news ! Counter offensive is starting with precautions! Once the first line ist breached then all the south will collapse…no moral, no discipline no more equipments …on the road to Crimea
After the first line of defense UKR still have at least 2 more in front of them. The first line is mostly guarded by RUS mobilized forces. These are the ones with the worst morals and the least education. That’s why as soon as they see UKR forces, they disappear. The deeper you advance to the other lines, the better trained and equipped RUS soldiers are waiting for the UKR.
RUS mobilized forces “are the ones with the worst morals and the least education”. They also probably belong to an inferior race, no? Do you really think UKR mobilized soldiers speak 5 languages and have read Shakespeare? COME ON
this is (ironically) Russian self-description (‘stupid/inept enough to got mobilised’).
To the point – they tend to have low institutional and individual morale (mobilised and general pop excluding a few, now heavily diluted units) because (1) most does not have idea why they are there and for what (2) most have got problematic motivations if any (such as money etc.) –>
(3) they do not trust neither command, commander nor the state itself (and there goes denial, ‘slave mentality’, lack of trust and conviction etc.).
That does not means that it is true for everybody or that they just run (some, maybe if things gets hairy) even if that would be for them the best soliution.
Yes. and the real russian army with 1 000 000 troops is keep in reserve to a surprise counterattacks when UKR rech moscow?
And extention of mobilisation age is because the best soldiers are men of 39 year without military service?
everything follow the plan dont change anything.
dont know, but 247th Guards Air Assault Regiment (VDV), does not seem like mobiks (i see magic word mostly guarded), apparently each line is important for Russia and there is no elastic defense in particular. Hold the line, if you lost position, retake it. Seem, behind lines is just safety net where you can fallback to in case of breach, rather than supply of better and fresh forces waiting.
To speak now of the conquest of the south is somewhat premature.
I stand by my opinion, the recovery of the south and subsequent conquest of the Crimea will be decided in Melitopol. As long as UKR does not reach this city, the south and especially the Crimea are in Russian hands.
I have a different picture concerning the layered defense. I think you are mistaken concerning the waiting of better troops in second and third lines. The better troops in the back are doctrinal used to counterattack where the enemy made advances. So where ever Ukraine gains ground the good troops come in. That would mean that many allready got thrown into the fight. But I also read that
Russia didn’t use it’s operational reserves yet.
Concerning Melitopol, well yes, it is the gate to Crimea but the isthmus is the real hurdle, and that won’t be taken easily. Anyways, I think taking Melitopol is a rather positive and not so likely line of events for this year. First you would have to take tokmak and after penetrate the Vasilivka Melitopol Line.
Personally I like the polohy line, taking it and pushing for the see of asov in the softer middle, somewhere east of tokmak and Melitopol. If you reach asov, Kerch will be history and everything west will be in a very deep Kherson like shit.
Optimally cutting to Mariupol, the closer to it you reach asov, the better.
You’re talking about Sea of Azov…? You put forward a different thesis every day, now all of a sudden it’s Asov. Attacking Crimea from Asov does not work because UKR has no more ships.
This sea is strategically unfavorable because half of the coast is Russia.Tokmak is the plan because Melitopol is easy to reach from there
If you take tokmak you cut the main railway. At that point, disrupting the Kerk bridge would create enormous logistical problems for the Russians.
It is no coincidence that the road to tokmak is full of defensive lines
no need to take tokmak to cut the railway.
Melitopol is the largest base (soldiers, vehicles, supply lines) of the RUS Army in southern Ukraine. Another advantage of this city is that this is the only big city in the occupied territory where almost everything is still intact, hardly destroyed.
Cutting to the sea of asov to severe the mainland lines of communication is a stated objective of the counteroffensive. When did I offer any other plan here? This is just armchair generaling, not my favorite spot usually.
Reaching the sea of asov also has the advantage that Ukraine can reach the Kerch bridge with storm shadows and water drones the short way instead of going all around Crimea.
even Melitopol is good, securing Cherson from arty shelling, more agricultural fields to be demined, even remains of Nova Kakhovka dam and Enerhodar and shelling “land bridge” roads either on shore or further from shore. Having Volnovakha in range wouldnt hurt too. Mighty Red Army being challenged by 20x smaller opponent, who would have guessed.
No. you talk to UKR, not russian.
UKR will not attack frontaly melitopol like bakmut. They will do what they always do ( one of the basic rule of war), conturn the stronghold to cut the logistic .
Wow wow not so fast, I don’t think things will really speed up. The Russians can just retreat to their second line and mine the area like crazy and the other problem is that Russian-Ukrainian losses are roughly 1:1 which is in Russia’s advantage, but I’m glad we finally see some momentum. The US should’ve supplied cluster munitions already during the battle of Bahmut
Ukrainian casualties are 100% the fault of the west which has since the beginning of the war acted very weak. The west needs to show some teeth, supply Ukraine with long-range missiles, modern drones and actively sabotage Russian industries and cut China and Russia completely off from chips, since almost all of them are produced in Taiwan – let them taste the power of democracy
yes we know. russia is forced by West to kill ukrainian. no need to repeat this bullshit here.
dont want to speak on Triglav behalf, but i dont think that is what he meant. Way i understand it is blaming West for acting soft and if they acted faster and boldy, it would save some UKR lives in the process. Russian actions regardless.
No, my point was that a lot of Ukrainian casualties could’ve been prevented if the west supplied modern tanks and equipment much earlier
You are right. There has been a general underestimation. I am a citizen of a western state and the vast majority of analysts considered the Russian deployment in February 2022 to be just a negotiating card. And after the 24th I remember that Biden had offered an escape route.
Even the Russians underestimated the Ukrainians. The Russians used the same number of troops as they did in the Gulf war
But the Ukrainian army is much better equipped and motivated than the Iraqi one.
I can’t imagine how it would have gone if the Russians had deployed three times as many troops from the start? Would the West have sent equipment before the attack? Would diplomacy have won, not thinking of a bluff? And in the event of a mass attack, what would have changed? attack on Kiev was ridiculously underesti
Not even close the US and its allies had over 900,000 in Desert Storm if that’s what gulf war you speak of. Russia greatly underestimated the Ukrainians deploying less then 250,000 against Ukraine’s over 400,000. Right now is the first time Russia’s had even close to as many as Ukraine.
Iraq had 650,000.
and thats just land troops, no where near the tomahawk sources or air superiority that flushed out iraqi air forces and restricted lots of movement for land units. These two wars are simply not comparable. US was able to supply to SA and then in Iraq, Russian basically stopped between 50-100km from borders because of logistics. Two different worlds.
Not to mention the fact Iraq wasn’t aware of GPS without which the Coalitions Mechanized units would have just been blindly driving through a desert.
Im sorry, but air strikes lasted 5 weeks, land operations 100 hours. During battle for Medina Ridge it was 4 US tanks lost against IRQ 186 and 200 other armored. That was surprise skirmish. Just because of better equipment and air superiority…And your point to today is? Russian dont have Glonnas? RUS tried precision strikes first days..failed. UKR isnt IRQ for many reason.Two different worlds.
That’s what I was getting at it wasn’t that the US had GPS that made it so effective but that Iraq was unaware so they planned there defenses assuming the coalition would have trouble navigating the desert only to be caught by surprise when the enemy attacked from behind them and since they buried there tanks they couldn’t reposition them. Ukraine knows there enemy very well unlike the Iraqis did.
What you say is “Ukrainian casualties are 100% the fault of the west” .
Dont say that if you want to say another things.
West doesnt have the obligation to help ukrain. Insulting the country who help ukrain is not the best idea if you want to support ukrain.
Sorry for the confusion. While the west has no formal obligations, its actions, specifically, its equipment can save lives. Slow support is causing casualties which could’ve been prevented with proper military hardware. If Ukraine already had western aircraft then there’d be more russian casulaties and less ukrainian equipment lost – every UA piece and life is valuable
one old cynic would say that stopping RUS in Ukraine save you troubles in Baltic, Poland, Moldavia, Romania, Slovakia in the future with either hybrid operations or even undermining stability of these states. But West rather plays “keep them busy” scenario, than “beat them decisively”.
Ukraine is small potatoes compared to the confrontation shaping up between the West and China. The West isn’t cautious because Putin is a madman, the West is cautious because China is a legitimate threat. Trickling equipment to Ukraine will keep them alive and begin to unravel the BRICS alliance. Keeps China a regional power only. The West needs their weapons in case of escalation.
China a regional power? That is long gone. China will have the biggest GDP and India the third biggest by about 2030. Basically there will be only Asians in the top 10 GDP plus the USA soon.
We shouldn’t make ourselves smaller than we are. I would be interested to know which 10 Asian countries you mean. And don’t say Dubai, Saudi Arabia and Qatar… Find out more before you write something like that…
As long as China can trade, there is no danger. China cares more about selling its goods than waging war on the countries that are China’s largest trading partners.
There you go for 2028:
https://en.as.com/latest_news/which-countries-will-have-the-top-10-economies-in-2028-n-3/
You can Google 2030 yourself, France and GB will fall out of the top 10 soon. I doubt that Russia will be there, it allready lost top 10 in 2022. Brazil, Turkey, Egypt are all candidates. Asian top 10 for sure are china, India, first and second, third and Japan 4th plus Indonesia.
But there are no 10 Asian states, as previously written. These changes in 5 years will certainly not change the world order. China currently believes it is the world’s greatest power and will believe so in 5 years. In the same way, they will not have solved their outstanding real estate crisis in 5 years. Ultimately, GDP is just a statistical value that says little about the power of a state
I said ‘basically 9 asians plus USA soon’ and it is going to be the top 4 of 5 soon, come on…
Ok, sorry, I was wrong.
GDP is surly not the only power metric, but it is a major one. Things already changed a lot and by 2050 things will have changed a lot more. The center of the world will be in Asia, accept it.
Really? Indonesia, Egypt and Turkey? Instead of France, Germany and Britain? Indonesia has 278 mil population. That’s why the big GDP and the 17th place. Per capita, 122nd. The power of a state isn’t just GDP. What industry does Indonesia have, what health system, what educational system, public sector and IT advances? How about corruption? The same applies for Egypt. For Turkey to lesser extend.
Your comments sucked and biased of orientalist spirit. Please ask EU, WTO, and IMF, why they always challenge our downstreaming policy of minerals and CPO? Just like they meddling in our nickel policy nowadays. Thx your critic about our corruption index. But we just getting better since year 2000 (democratic era). Thx, Russ resistance of Western sanctions are very good lessons.
As I said, the strength of a country isn’t measured just on the nominal GDP. What is the quality of life when per capita GDP ranking is 122? What happens with the health system, education and public sector efficiency? And what do you mean about mineral policy. Since when digging for resources makes you a big power? I am talking about industry. The only thing i have seen from Indonesia is shoes.
Haven’t used anything made in Britain ever. Anyways, if you want to underestimate those States because they are on average not as rich as we are, then you are doing a big mistake. In fact, that is one of their biggest advantages. If everything goes well, they will be as rich some day, just a lot bigger. You have been born in a rich state, they are building one. This western arrogance is destroying
A lot of human potential and our political standing in the world. We will have to learn to be more humble.
You just talking baseless. Indonesia has a very good health and education system. The education and medical centers owned by government is free of charge. Those really helps. Our models of democracy is also good and
Acnowledged by the world. Also many moslems countries learns to us about our religious tolerance . We don’t need being superpower . We just need better life and system.
Sioux doesn’t just take over important ports, she builds herself an infrastructure for the great war
China is currently still a regional power in terms of it’s ability to project real military power beyond it’s borders. They are making progress to contend with the US as a superpower. Hence the reason for tension. The US isn’t interested in returning to a multipolar world, nor is a lot of the West.
Everyone pursues their own interests.
Concerning china in terms of military, that may be true, but in terms of political and economical influence they are already an easy number 2 in the world. India will follow to be the number three. Concerning the follow ups, yes, Indonesia and Brazil will probably surpass the major European powers, obviously mainly because of numbers, and they count. They do in china, India and will anywhere else.
These countries have the advantage of having a Hugh well educated rich elite and vast cheap working power in one country and they are not split like the EU. Obviously the EU and the USA will have their word for a long time to come, but the center will move to Asia by shear weight. And that is highly democratic, if I may say so.
We all know the trajectory, that’s why there’s tension. That’s my whole point.
The war in Ukraine is a way to weaken the BRICS alliance and keep the West on top. China won’t be able to win a war with the West without help. So weakening or dismantling the alliance sequesters the threat. Who knows what the future holds, so stalling for time isn’t the worst option. If the CCP falls and China Westernizes, tensions should fall. The lot of us just want to live our lives. Not… Read more »
Wouldn’t surprise me if Putin thought he’d be doing the same to NATO.
I am a lot more concerned with the state of the USA and western politics in general. Democracies get destroyed from within, not outside. China seems to be pretty isolated in Asia, while Japan, Korea and Taiwan could be called part of the wider west and Australia, new Zealand anyways. India will be a natural counterweight to china. The big question is how good deterrence works in Taiwan.
BRICS is not an alliance at all. China and India are no friends by any means, may be Robb can tell us how Indonesia looks at them and Brazil is on the other end of the world. BRICS is nothing other than not being west, but it has no cohesion. If the West would be less arrogant, India could become a friend and may be even Indonesia. It is sad to see how they support… Read more »
One would think they know better.
In Indonesian society the sentiment anti-china is far greater than anti-western. Chinese cheap goods continues flowing and destroying our local production and less quality. We just got extraordinary cases of death thousand kids consumed China cough syrups. Also we cautious about huge China money investing in our infrastructure. It’s kind of trap. But, we cant resist all of that.
BRICS just kinda ambitious project with no root of history. The ASEAN organization is the very relevant to us. But, BRICS spirit is good. We truly need alternative currency system and alternative markets outside EU (EU deforestation policy hurt our local farmers). Besides, Our corrupt technocrats tends to Make USD higher and the low income society suffering from the inflation.
Thanks for the heads-up. Fits into my picture of the economic power but political isolation of china. Do not think to bad of the EU, it is a good place. I would argue, with all its faults and western hypocrisy, probably the greatest human peace project of all time and definitely the best Europe there ever was.
you simplify complex things too much, Max. You mean after 2 world wars, that US had to intervene otherwise would end up differently? It was very hard lesson to learn.Knowing my german friends, you always seen EU in more positive way and had tendency to overlook its quirks or even mistakes. There is multiple ways how to implement EU idea and current Green deal bulshit and one EU state seem not it.
dont want to be pesimistic, but current EU reminds bit more Titanic, there is water in lower levels, but still music is playing on top deck. What it became in Brusel in terms of arrogance and pushing agenda, thats pill hard to swallow. Pact of Steel had more freedom. I dont have alternative, Id like to keep EU, but be less woke, less left wing and communist. There never will be one EU nation.
Eastern block had Comecon, The Council for Mutual Economic Assistance and they have their own experience when you try to rule the empire from central by wrong/bad directives. People from West dont realize how far they got with EU committee and how much power it had accumulated. I wonder if system is able to self-repair, self-correct or what is the outcome in the future.
You always overlook the simple truths, because you get caught up in your world view. No idea where the US intervention thing came from. Anyways, the EU is a great success story, with all its faults, not seeing that, is being blind if you ask me. Are there problems? Hell yes! I wouldn’t exchange those for the problems of the US or any other state or region though.
Comparing Brussels and the EU to the east block is such a simplification… Less communist? Oh come on… Take of your coloured politics glasses. In a reality hammered between rushism and clima crisis kicking on one of the few things that keeps the shit from going completely bananas is politically blind. Just my 2 pence. You none Germans never understood how deep shit can get.
Ok, lets agree to disagree. In old block, soviets had this “command wind and rain” and EU is trying to do the same with renewable resources. Germany lovely example, that you have to triple the energy sources in case there is no wind, or sun, or core. On top of that, Green deal, gas bad, fossils bad. And yet, EU try to convince the world to behave responsibly while being 10% responsible for global
CO2 emmisions, then killing auto industry, boilers and others. Expecting US and China to join the merry train. So unless you have leverage on 3rd world or China, reducing own EU emmisions wont solve anything. But be my guest enlighten me that EU is lighthouse showing everyone right way and they gladly join EU, or they will bring shiny inventions (when?) that shape the tech world…next?
How US got to it? In 1st WW breaking up the stalemate, in 2nd WW, saving Europe from either Hitler or Stalin. Without that, no Marshal plan, no pact of Steel and no EU. Like i said, Europe had to endure two horrors of WW to give EU a shot, otherwise national struggles like always. Dont know who is blind here 🙂
I think you got me wrong here. I´m pro-EU, and i dont think there is better solution on the horizon and very happy for 80years there was no war between major EU powers (DE/UK/FR). Im just very cautions about national or personal freedom and social engineering current EU is adopting (to my taste, personal opinion). Also you have southern states, old west, new east. Its machinery on its own.
I aggree with you about EU green policy. How can EU think some Asian states should live in the jungle? Capitalism and modernization are surely unavoidable for every nations. That’s why Asian states remain neutral in Russia-Ukrania war. We are forced to hostile Russia, while on the other hand, EU tightens its doors to our farm products. It’s not gonna work.
Mixing the green deal with the farming policy of the EU makes no sense. The ‘why do something if the rest doesn’t’ argument makes absolutely no sense, because if we all go by it, we will be in the deepest shit ever, and we are already in deep shit. That is, with all due respect, childish and argument style of primary school. We are actively destroying our wealth with that big time, and to keep
Doing something wrong, proven wrong, proven to destroy our future, because others do it wrong too… Oh boy. Oh well, that’s the world I live in. Doing the right thing is our only hope. This will eat up our world wide wealth big time, everywhere, and I promise you, people will look upon us in 2050 and won’t get how dumb we were. It is proven by sience, the same shit that gives us all… Read more »
In the first place, and the whole world acts like you can make a political compromise with sience or nature. At least the EU is trying to tackle the problem, to slow, but it tries, and the green deal in the USA as well and china is the biggest renewable energy source in the world. Stop acting childish, change your lifestyle now and get busy. We have no time at all to spare.
We have to get rid of fossils, yesterday, and the longer we wait, the more expensive it will get, that is proven. Learn to live with it, get busy, and stop complaining about proven reality, because anything else just makes us poorer. You thing inflation is ugly now? Well watch how clima crisis will hold that beer. Proven, scientifically, facts!
Ridiculing your opponent is bit sign of acting childish on your own. Also generic argument of “right” thing to do tells pretty much nothing. Solving 10% of EU piece wont solve nothing. There is 170 years since industrial revolution, some things are simply beyond our evolution or understandings, science regardless. Im saying it not that it cannot be done, just a limititation of our own species.
and reading your reaction, i think its bit pointless to try convince each other to change view on that topic. Ill try to refrain from it in the future …cheers
There is no right or wrong in sience, it simply explores our reality. Not talking about it, does not solve or change that it will get worse the longer we keep waititng and we will have to do it, because it will just keep getting worse. Why act later, if it just gets worse? It simply makes no sense to hide behind any “but” argument. You have a free will, like all humans.
Free will is usually demonstrated by pyramid called Maslow, i have nothing else to add.
I mean EUDR. It restricted some farming export commodities such as cooking oil, coffee, pepper, rubber, etc, because of deforestation issue. its quite funny regarding EU also shipped 5,85 million MT of coals from Indonesia in 2022. Interestingly, some weeks ago, it’s Tony Blair came visiting our Minister of Trade and offering help to challenge EUDR in the WTO arbitration.
That’s exactly the point. Unless these states get their political problems under control, they will never be better than western states. Although Indonesia is outwardly a democracy, corrupt politics are still slowing down progress. These politicians should stop juggling important positions among themselves and ignore the will of the people.
For the time being, it seems that Western politics and democracy have very serious problems. Western countries are destroying themselves with internal divisions, starting with the progressive left in the United States and ending with the extreme right that is rising all over Europe.
I don’t know that the progressive left is all that big a concern in the US. Most Americans (by polling) are apathetic or in support of the social issue du jour. American leftism is well to the right of European leftism – it’s often to the right of mainstream European conservatives. Of course there are more radical elements but they are few in number and skew young – often not even voting.
In Europe, the old borders with left and right have slowly dissipated over time ending up with “social state” policy and big rise of populism among political parties. Seem conservative parties (left or right) have no vision to offer or to counter populistic ones, because populist can promise you anything. Hard to compete with.
A friend of mine, very conservative for German standarts, moved to Kentucky. He is a very left person there, in his own words.
Anyways, yes, western states have enough democratic problems themself. Let us stop judging other democracies now.
I don’t doubt it. At least there is great bourbon in Kentucky.
With such a policy, these states cannot overtake stronger ones.
Even if BRICS wants to be a counterweight to the EU, it is a mistake to reject everything that comes from the West.
in fact its the second lign (but the first of magic 3 lign. ). and it doesnt look as strong as the first one.
This ‘first” lign is so weak that most of russian supporter say its not really the “first”lign. because, we see just an anti tank ditch, with no minefield ,without defenders and without glacis (why thy dont cut this fucking tree lign close to the ditch?)
Half of the trenches and defenses lines after the first ones will be emptied with cluster ammo or are fake lines…. even better if UKR destroyed the maximum amount of ammunitons Depots and logistic behind the lines to make them surrender